On ‘Tarot Interlude’, the penultimate observe on Pom Pom Squad‘s sophomore album, Mia Berrin’s finest good friend spells out the definition of the Tower Card: “It’s unsettling as a result of it reveals that irrespective of our plans for ourselves, a divine act can utterly uproot every little thing.” Berrin has solely pulled the cardboard as soon as, and it did, in reality, grow to be an indication of great upheaval, which the musician then stares proper into on Mirror Begins Shifting With out Me‘s momentous nearer. However the journey of tearing by the wanting glass, cathartic as it might be, is matted and disorienting. Following the acclaim of 2021’s Demise of a Cheerleader, Berrin discovered items of herself fragmented and refracted as if by a corridor of mirrors, although not past restore. Working with co-producer Cody Fitzgerald, she sought to shake off the expectations set across the Brooklyn band’s debut by leaning into her love of pop and singer-songwriter music as a lot as she tumbles by a darkish, grungy chaos. “You have to abandon what you’ve identified earlier than,” the tarot studying instructs, however in a means, Berrin responds by going additional again to a data of self that’s formative, pure, and important: Alice in Wonderland, horror films, songs that form you in methods new ones can’t. It’s as a lot a technique of rediscovery as it’s restoration: turning hell into an infinite void, then by your sincere reflection, again into wonderland.
We caught up with Pom Pom Squad’s Mia Berrin to speak about how Alice in Wonderland, disco, Satoshi Kon’s Excellent Blue, Prince, and extra impressed Mirror Begins Shifting With out Me.
A Spotify playlist
I used to be in a little bit of a author’s block going into the album. After which additionally on the very tail finish of the album, I needed to write two extra songs and was actually having bother accessing the a part of myself that might provide you with two new songs. [laughs] I don’t know what precisely spurred the thought, however I used to be like, I’m going to make a playlist of each track I can bear in mind from childhood to maturity that basically knowledgeable the way in which I hear and write music. Not similar to, “Oh, I actually cherished this track,” or “I had an enormous part with this track,” however songs that basically modified one thing for me. I made this playlist and simply listened to it again and again, and it was the factor that helped me end the album and allowed us to lastly go into the studio. As we have been going into the studio, I instructed everybody how impressed I used to be and the way excited I used to be about this concept, and I principally assigned everybody to make their playlist. All of us needed to pay attention to one another’s playlists and choose songs from one another’s playlists that we’d by no means heard earlier than and be like, “What did you study concerning the individual from listening to their playlist?” or, “What’s a track that you simply’ve by no means heard earlier than?” I obtained actually additional with it.
I used to be so excited concerning the findings of all our shared playlists that I ended up making a Venn diagram of everybody’s songs in widespread, as a result of we had loads. And it was stunning – I’ve been in a band with Shelby [Keller] and Alex [Mercuri] for six years, Lauren [Marquez] has been within the band for I believe two years now, and Cody [Fitzgerald] and I had been working collectively for a 12 months earlier than we went into the studio. Lauren and Cody had by no means met earlier than the periods – they’d essentially the most songs in widespread! Cody, Lauren, and I had a ton in widespread; all of us had at the least two or three artists or songs in widespread, and that’s fairly unbelievable. Or we have been going by one another’s playlists and going, like, “I ought to have put that one, I completely forgot about that track!” However it actually confirmed me that I’ve a extremely good group of collaborators in that we worth lots of the identical issues about music. After which, as we have been within the studio, we have been pulling references from our playlists versus being like, “Nicely, what are our contemporaries doing?” I nonetheless reference that playlist loads after I’m going again to put in writing.
Why was it essential to you to decide on formative slightly than modern influences?
That’s a very good query. I believe being an unbiased musician now may be very mentally difficult. That is going to sound so boring, however if you happen to’re somebody with any aspiration for industrial success, it’s really easy to have your creativity utterly zapped from you. And that’s type of what I used to be feeling. I believe there’s lots of strain as an artist to be the artist, the advertiser, the marketer, and to be interested by TikTok developments. To me, it’s all detrimental to the music and to any type of true artistic expression, as a result of I discovered myself pondering, “What does my label need? What do followers need? What does press need? What’s going to I get criticized for the least? How do I simply keep away from any detrimental feeling? How do I maximize my industrial potential?” That’s not the kind of artist that I’m, and it’s not the kind of artist I wish to be. There’s nothing incorrect with being that kind of artist, however for me, it utterly eats away on the artistic facet.
For a second, I used to be having lots of bother writing as a result of I used to be misplaced in interested by every little thing besides my artistic instincts. I believe that’s a part of the strain of a second album. If individuals like your first album, you’re like, “Nicely, I would like them to maintain liking me.” And the very fact is that no person needs to hearken to one thing that feels rote or mechanical. I really feel like individuals can inform whenever you’re doing one thing that’s not true to you. Early within the writing phases of this album, I discovered myself pushing again my artistic instincts as a result of I used to be interested by what different individuals would need. That’s not honest to me, and that’s additionally not honest to the individuals who truly like my music and this challenge. I used to be additionally at a spot in my life the place I felt like I wanted to start out peeling again the layers and getting again in contact with who I’m. That basically grew to become the impetus for the album – attempting to carve away something that isn’t genuine to me or pure artistic impulse.
You talked about asking everybody what they realized about one another by their picks. What’s one thing you realized about your self?
When it comes to what I realized about my style, I believe there was lots of strain in the beginning of this album to remain in a extra rock-focused zone. And I simply discovered that rock music and indie rock are a part of my bigger sonic palette, however they’re not the issues I worth most in a track. I believe a part of the explanation I used to be having a lot bother writing was that I used to be actually attempting to strain myself to remain on this one specific field. After I first began enjoying music, it was an enormous a part of my induction into music, like riot grrrl and the DIY punk scene and grunge music. It’s all the time going to be part of the tapestry of what I do. However I discovered that lots of the issues on my playlist have been very songwriting-focused, lyrics-focused. For me, I can’t get right into a track if I can’t get into the lyrics. I discovered myself actually desirous to discover my voice extra – actually as a vocalist, as a lyricist – and lean extra into myself as a producer this time round. The playlist type of helped me reverse-engineer the kind of songs I wish to write and what makes essentially the most sense for these lyrics.
Alice in Wonderland
What introduced you again to that e book as a reference level?
After I’m conceptualizing stuff, Demise of a Cheerleader actually began with coloration and texture – that type of cherry pink, pink latex texture, which is a bizarre beginning place. This one actually began with temper, feeling, and coloration. The formative place that ‘Downhill’ got here out of, and that served as a reference level for the album usually – that is so summary, however I needed it to sound such as you’re on the backside of a effectively. I needed it to be a deep, darkish place that blooms out into one thing. However I saved going again to this effectively feeling, and I believe the sense of loss, confusion, worry, and disorientation introduced me again to Alice in Wonderland.
Alice in Wonderland is one in every of my favourite tales ever. I really like the 1951 Disney movie, and there have been lots of nice variations which can be actually sick as effectively. However I all the time come again to that character. I used to be very caught on the idea of attempting to determine what I like with none pretense, indifferent from any sense of cool, simply intestine reactions to issues that I cherished. And a type of issues was Alice in Wonderland. I even had an Alice in Wonderland-themed Bar Mitzvah, it was actually fucking humorous. It simply feels prefer it got here again to me on the good time after I was exploring this story a few type of lack of my sense of self. It felt like a really apt character to play with and probe for this album cycle, and likewise to get again in contact with my childhood self.
There’s that well-known quote from the e book: “Who on this planet am I? Ah, that’s the nice puzzle.” That query clearly marks lots of coming-of-age tales, and Demise of a Cheerleader match into that class. However I really feel like Mirror Begins Shifting With out Me tackles this lack of self from a unique perspective, one which’s tied to the disorientation following the success of your debut album. Did you are feeling like your sense of identification was upended, or that it grew to become a unique kind of puzzle, in a means?
Yeah, positively. I do really feel like my sense of self was actually upended within the aftermath of Demise of a Cheerleader. They are saying you’ve gotten your complete life to put in writing your first album, after which you’ve gotten a 12 months to put in writing your second, and it’s type of true. The oldest songs on Demise of a Cheerleader I wrote after I was 16 or 17. For this album, there’s just one track that’s “outdated”; every little thing else was written after Demise of a Cheerleader. It was a extremely complicated time. Clearly, I’m not an enormous artist, however any type of evaluation you see different individuals make about you or your artwork – on-line, in individual, or at a merch desk – is barely disorienting. You write this factor that’s so private to you, after which it turns into everybody else’s. And everybody else’ tackle it’s honest – optimistic, detrimental, that’s honest. There’s no goal reality about music. However it’s additionally very disorienting to then analyze your self as an outdoor social gathering, this factor you made – that you simply’ve cherished to do because you have been a child – and be like, “Now I’ve to reverse-engineer what individuals like about it if I wish to succeed a second time.” I felt misplaced within the sauce in that means.
Had been you impressed by the sequel, By way of the Trying Glass, as effectively, given the mirror symbolism?
Yeah, completely. I knew that the album was going to be known as Mirror Begins Shifting With out Me for some time. That mirror concept was one thing that simply saved coming again to me. I believe all of it grew to become this huge blanket of the mirror idea informing me coming again to loads these references. Clearly, the duvet artwork may be very a lot impressed by By way of the Trying Glass. That complete imagery positively comes from that story.
Prince
I learn that your mom launched you to his music.
Yeah, technically each my mother and father, however lots of my music style is from my mother. My first reminiscence of music is Prince. After I was like actually little, my household was on a street journey, and I do not forget that when my mother and father thought that me and my siblings have been asleep, that’s once they would hearken to, you understand, the nice music, the grownup music. [laughs] So I’d faux to be asleep and hearken to no matter they have been listening to. They began listening to Prince, and it was a extremely formative second in my life. It was simply so electrical and unbelievable. He’s simply a tremendous, genre-defying artist, and I take lots of inspiration from him and his artistic observe.
Was he a type of artists you went again to across the recording?
Yeah, completely. I used to be studying a e book about Prince whereas we have been within the studio. And ‘Lolita’ is the primary track on my playlist of songs that I can bear in mind from my childhood. One thing that I really like about Prince is how a lot imaginative and prescient he had for his challenge. Form of equally, he produced, he conceptualized the visuals, he was an instrumentalist; he simply was a workhorse, and that’s simply the type of artist I’m. I additionally love how identity-defying he was. I take into consideration him loads after I work, and I used to be listening to lots of Prince whereas I used to be engaged on the manufacturing of the album.
Disco
We talked about ‘Downhill’, and you’ll actually hear the disco affect on that track. What took you in that course?
From the Demise of a Cheerleader headline tour onward, I had slightly psychological disco revival. I actually began falling in love with pop music round that point. This isn’t disco, however I’m going to say it anyway – I used to be listening to CAPRISONGS by FKA twigs, which is one in every of my favourite albums of the previous few years, if not my favourite. I believe I listened to it actually each single day for the entire whole tour. I’d simply sit at the back of the van and hearken to it, and I simply cherished it a lot. I really like twigs as an artist, so listening to her do one thing slightly bit totally different and have enjoyable together with her challenge was type of the primary inclination for me.
I used to be speaking to my mother about this new discovery of loving pop, and she or he despatched me a protracted playlist of issues that she thought I would really like, and there was lots of Donna Summer season on it. So I began listening to lots of Donna Summer season, after which Beyoncé’s Renaissance got here out, and I used to be listening to it loads. Seeing Beyoncé and twigs, these two artists which can be clearly perfectionists about their craft, simply have lots of enjoyable with it was actually transformative for me, as a result of I are usually slightly bit extra nose-to-the grindstone, critical, and perfectionistic about my challenge.
I’m slightly little bit of a music historical past nerd, and the rock versus disco dichotomy actually was fascinating to me as somebody who individuals affiliate with the rock world extra. The entire “disco sucks” motion – rock was very white, male-dominated; it was not began by white males, but it surely grew to become very white, male-dominated. When white males took over rock and roll, all the individuals of coloration and the queers went to disco. Rock grew to become this place for males to precise sexual frustration, aggression, need, or no matter, and disco grew to become this place the place the queers and the individuals of coloration may escape from a world that was in any other case didn’t care or wasn’t accepting of them. I believe that we nonetheless type of see the rock versus pop face-off within the fashionable period greater than even we wish to consider. I believe there are extra individuals who hearken to each than ever, however being an artist who’s extra related to the rock facet, but additionally being queer and being an individual of coloration, I nonetheless suppose the rock world is severely lacking some enjoyable and queer POC power.
Disco simply grew to become this escape for me, too. I believe ‘Downhill’ got here out of that place – it actually begins as a rock track and turns into a dance track, so it felt like this very literal exploration of, how do I marry these two sides of myself? How do I take this darker, moodier a part of my persona and nonetheless attempt to have lots of enjoyable with it?
Satoshi Kon’s Excellent Blue
How did the movie or the primary character’s journey resonate with you across the making of the album?
I really like that film. I’ve bother recommending it as a result of clearly it’s so disturbing, but it surely’s simply such a particular movie. For me, watching it helped me begin to hone in on the language I needed to make use of to speak about the subject material of this album. Typically you get confronted with a bit of artwork that helps you set a sense into phrases, or one thing that you simply felt however by no means knew was, like, actual. That’s what that film was for me. I used to be already type of enjoying with the idea of dissociation. Clearly, the title, Mirror Begins Shifting With out Me, may be very a lot impressed by the horror film trope, the place your important character is wanting in a mirror, and the mirror does one thing that the primary character doesn’t do and it reveals some type of hidden need or ulterior ambition. That picture felt like one thing extraordinarily related to my life.
The character of being a performer and desirous to be a public individual – there’s a model of you that you may’t solely management that exists for different individuals. And it’s disconcerting, particularly as somebody whose sense of identification can already be a bit tenuous, to really feel like there’s one other model of you on the market that’s up for interpretation or up for grabs, so to talk, that different individuals can latch on to and make into no matter they need. It’s like your avatar in a means. Seeing that journey externalized by movie was actually essential for me as a result of it was a sense I didn’t perceive. It got here to me at a time in my life the place I actually wanted to see it, and it positively helped inform the subject material and the imagery of the album.
How do you’re employed in direction of drawing a line, mentally, between your private life and your persona as Pom Pom Squad? Is {that a} query you end up wrestling with?
Yeah, a bit. I imply, I really like doing this, and I wish to do that for a very long time. I believe that it’s a good query to start out asking myself now: how do I make it sustainable for myself? As a result of it’s getting very mentally taxing, attempting to suppose in character on a regular basis. And it’s very straightforward for me to slide into an identification or a personality and never take into consideration my very own instincts or needs and wishes. I’ve needed to actually discover methods to separate, simply on a private stage. I believe it’s all the time gonna be ongoing, however I believe after I was writing Mirror, it was lastly beginning to get to a spot the place I used to be like, “I must create some type of separation for myself.” It’s bizarre, as a result of it’s not one thing that’s straightforward to clarify, and it’s not one thing that’s essentially intuitive to make another person perceive. I believe that’s additionally type of why artwork exists, although. Artwork exists for the emotions which can be laborious to clarify and are laborious to make somebody perceive.
Tarot Readings
This ties into the ultimate two tracks, the interlude and the nearer. Inform me concerning the symbolism of the Tower and the way it figured into the decision of the album.
I began messing round with tarot playing cards in highschool. My finest good friend is superb at studying tarot and studying individuals’s charts. It’s her voice within the interlude, it’s her studying the definition. It’s one thing she and I bond over and discuss loads, and if I’m actually going by it, I’ll name her, and I’ll ask her to drag a card for me. I’m not a spiritual individual essentially; I’m a religious individual, and I believe that going by life unmoored to any type of system of perception is treacherous. I believe people who find themselves confused by faith as an idea – I don’t suppose it’s all that obscure, in that everybody simply needs to really feel like what we’re doing has function and motive. I used to be strolling by life for some time actually within the day-to-day, and with no actual thought in direction of larger function or ambition. I simply felt utterly unmoored and horrid.
Getting again in contact with a extra religious facet of myself began with studying tarot once more and pulling my playing cards. If there’s an enormous crossroads in my life, I’ll all the time pull playing cards. I’ve solely ever pulled the Tower card as soon as, and it predicted this large upheaval in my life that I by no means noticed coming. I believe that the previous few years of my life, after Demise of a Cheerleader, have been outlined by that upheaval and private chaos. That’s the huge piece that I’m attacking within the album usually, but additionally particularly with the track ‘Tower’. It feels just like the pure finish of a second. The opposite factor about being an artist and releasing albums is it’s very ceremonious, in the way in which that individuals who don’t have music careers or no matter have birthday events or weddings or anniversaries. An album is a private anniversary in a bizarre means, for me at the least. It marks a part of my life, and it basically commemorates that second. This time interval of my life, the Mirror time interval, was marked by lots of disorientation and confusion and chaos and upheaval, and that every one felt very encompassed in pulling this card.
I had the lyrics for ‘Tower’ sitting round for a very long time. After I began writing that track, I sang slightly little bit of it, I simply began crying, after which I didn’t contact the track for like a 12 months. It simply felt like I came across one thing that was slightly bit too sizzling to the touch then. However in coming again to it, it felt just like the shut of this second. For me, Tarot marks simply placing perception in one thing in that there’s a function past what I can see. It helped me discover my means again to some type of groundedness and sense of self. And it’s additionally one thing that helps me join with my finest good friend.
Did it enable you to see a way of function past or inside the upheaval?
Folks all the time inform me, “Nicely, perhaps you haven’t resolved it since you haven’t realized a lesson from it.” And I actually resented that. I nonetheless resent it in a means, like, “Nicely, you don’t really feel higher since you haven’t realized from it”. I believe there’s reality to that; there have been positively some actually laborious classes that I needed to study over the previous few years. I’m grateful that I did, as a result of I really feel like I’ve come out on the opposite facet extra emotionally succesful than I used to be a number of years in the past. The fascinating factor about Mirror is that it’s part of my life that basically wants to finish and wanted to finish. It nearly seems like this long-delayed gratification as a result of the songs have been so tough to put in writing, and it was such a tough time that now what I’m left with is simply the enjoyable half, which is performing these enjoyable songs. It does really feel like a reward on the finish of a really, very lengthy few years, in a bizarre means. It’s going to be fascinating recontextualizing them in a reside area, and I believe that’s the optimistic spin of “The songs aren’t yours anymore.” I get to cease singing about what they meant to me and begin singing to what they imply to another person.
EMDR remedy
I solely did it slightly bit, but it surely’s the sort of remedy the place you maintain these two little issues in your arms, and so they’re lights, and the lights flip forwards and backwards. You’re supposed to maintain transferring your eyes from mild to mild, and so they ask you a bunch of questions. For no matter motive, I used to be having essentially the most vivid, visible recollections or pictures that I’ve ever had whereas I used to be doing this EMDR remedy, and that’s the place lots of the imagery got here from. There’s a visible for ‘Doll Music’ that, after I was doing EMDR remedy, I had this imaginative and prescient of myself as a doll, and I simply saved shrinking, and I used to be falling by this utterly darkish, void area. The therapist asks you questions like, “You come across an image body in a protracted corridor, what’s within the body?” It’s very fucking bizarre. However it was, with out me realizing, the impetus for the visuals of this period, of being this determine alone on this utterly darkish void. And that imagery feels very consultant of beginning over. Demise of a Cheerleader being so colourful and so vibrant and Mirror being practically devoid of coloration – it actually seems like wiping the slate clear. That was scary to start out, however I’m happy with it.
This interview has been edited and condensed for readability and size.
Pom Pom Squad’s Mirror Begins Shifting With out Me is out now through Metropolis Slang Information.
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